The Root Of The Science Podcast
*Disclaimer: The views expressed by the guests in the podcast episodes do not reflect my own*
The Root Of The Science Podcast
EP 153: Dr Charles Takalana, How Africa is Reclaiming Its Place in Global Astronomy
In this episode, Dr. Charles Takalana, Deputy Director of the Office of Astronomy for Development and Interim Head of Secretariat for the African Astronomical Society, shares how Africa is advancing in the fields of space science and astronomy research.
Dr. Takalana also highlights the society's work in building a strong astronomical community across Africa since its revival in 2019. Key initiatives include supporting young scientists, addressing misconceptions about astronomy, and emphasising its deep historical roots in African indigenous knowledge.
If you're interested in astronomy or want to start astronomy clubs in your community, reach out to the African Astronomical Society for support and resources at www.africanastronomicalsociety.org
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But the main purpose and role of the African Astronomical Society and my role is to ensure that you know we can grow astronomy on the continent. That means, you know, bringing more and more young people into the field of astronomy and ensuring that you know we can capture the interest in STEM, you know in STEM subject, and that they, you know they can also aspire to become astronomers or become scientists. You know that contribute to the growth of astronomy and space sciences, you know, on the continent. The other thing, of course, is that you know we support initiatives, that you know that actually, you know help the community, and these are things you know like in terms of outreach, you know reaching out, you know, to learners and to university students. And when we also, you know, support various grants, you know give certain grants. You know, for example, we've got the Seed Research Grant, which supports young people from anywhere on the continent that are looking, you know, to become an astronomer but not have those resources.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the Root of the Suns podcast with your girl, anne Withany. If you are new here, welcome to the show. It's always such a pleasure to have new listeners on the show, but if you're returning, thank you so much. Remember, if you're watching on YouTube, to like and subscribe the video and share it with others so that they can listen to this really informative session and share it with the world. Now let's get into today's episode.
Speaker 2:Astronomy in Africa has long been led by countries like South Africa, namibia, morocco, egypt and Algeria with their optical observatories. However, this field is evolving rapidly. Since 2019, 12 African nations have launched 41 satellites, with most being national projects and the rest involving multilateral collaborations. The future of African astronomy is promising, with achievements like the South Africa's Mia Cateray positioning the continent as a major player in the global space science. Today, I'm so excited because we're joined by Dr Charles Takalana he is the director of the African Astronomy Society, otherwise known as AFAS to discuss the upcoming AFAS conference, and also we chat about Africa's role in astronomy and, of course, so much more. Let's take a listen. Good morning, dr Charles. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good morning Anne. I think it's great to be here.
Speaker 2:It's so lovely to chat with you today and I'm so excited to talk about everything that you do. But I think, just to set the scene and before we dive into your work, could you kindly introduce yourself to our audience, giving us a brief overview of your education and how it actually led you into this field of astronomy?
Speaker 1:So, as I mentioned, I'm Dr Charles Takalana, so I'm currently the Deputy Director for the Office of Astronomy for Development. It's an international office. It's based in Cape Town in South Africa, but I also currently hold the position of Interim Head of Secretariat for the African Astronomical Society, which is a position I was initially full head of secretariat for the African Astronomical Society, which is a position I was initially full head of secretariat for the past almost four years now and they'll now be appointing. You know my success as I transitioned into my new role at the Office of Astronomy for Development.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so I hold a PhD in astronomy from the University of the Witwatersrand in South Africa and I think you know the thing that drove me into doing astronomy, you know, was just initially. You know my curiosity about the sciences. You know I never really thought that everything that I did, you know, up to some point in my life, would lead me directly into astronomy. You know, up to some point in my life would lead me directly into into astronomy, the. The fun thing that I actually tell people is that when I first registered at at university, I walked in to do a um, you know, a biochemistry and botany degree, and I walked out of the physics and math degree two different paths yeah, you know, in a in a completely different path, and I think that's the thing that's exciting about science the more you learn about some stuff and they could change the cause of your life as well.
Speaker 1:I think the turning point for me was when I learned about the Square Kilometer Array Project, which is this really big telescope project, which is an international collaboration that South Africa is a part of, and around the time I was doing my undergraduate, south Africa had just been awarded the bid to be the country that actually hosts this big infrastructure, which is going to be the biggest science infrastructure in the world, and I wanted to be a part of that, you know, to be a part of something, you know, that puts South Africa and that puts the African continent, you know. You know, on the map and to show the world that Africa is capable of doing cutting edge science and leading, you know, in the field of, you know, in a field, you know, that is as complex as astronomy.
Speaker 2:What a wonderful backstory of how you started and how you got here. And then this also actually helps with my follow-up question. You said you went in to do one degree and then you came out doing astronomy. And I think that maybe it might be because a lot of people are unaware of the field of astronomy as a whole. So for someone who is like, okay, what is the big deal? Why astronomy? Can you paint a picture of why it's really important, especially even in the setting of Africa, why we should be interested in this field?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I think you know one of the reasons why we should be, you know, have, why we should have an interest in this field of astronomy is, firstly, you know, for the you know, for the fact that it answers some of the main reasons why we should be, you know, have. Why we should have an interest in this field of astronomy is, firstly, you know, for the you know, for the fact that it answers some of the biggest questions that humanity has had, you know, ever since our existence. You know who are we, where do we come from? Right, it it astronomy, you know, helps us. You know, define our journey. You know as, as, as humanity, and and and as a species, you know, you know. It's sort of like you know, if you don't know where you come from, then how do you really know where you're going? How do we sort of, you know, ensure that you know we can, we can, ensure the survival of humanity, for example, you know, by by by, by studying other worlds and how they've evolved. We, we, we, we, we, we, you know, you know those sort of things, and and and also, I feel that you know all the countries that have taken, you know, fields like space science and astronomy seriously are actually, you know, the countries that have actually gone to develop. I mean, if you look at the us, you know they joined the space race. You know they, they, they build telescopes, big telescopes like the hubble space telescope. They've recently launched the James Webb Space Telescope, which is doing exciting science. They took the science of astronomy seriously and by them doing that they were able to sort of also develop their own countries as well. And I think that in Africa that's something that we should also be doing and I think that with things like the Southern African Large Telescope and the Square Kilometer Array, we are already moving in that direction. You know where we are taking the field of science and astronomy really seriously and I think you know, based on the work that we do on the ground, I hope that we can influence our policymakers as well to take, you know, this field of astronomy really seriously. We can influence our policymakers as well to take, you know, this field of astronomy really seriously.
Speaker 1:But you know, a much bigger picture than that is that you know, in Africa we sort of see the sciences and see, you know, science like astronomy, for example, as something that is too far away from us, you know. You know, growing up with Dilk, you know, for me, for example, they said, oh no, it's the science for the white people, for example. Right, you know, you, you, you, as a black child or black person, couldn't even imagine yourself, you know, uh, getting into the field of, of, of astronomy. But I think that we should, we should own science.
Speaker 1:You know, if you, if you look at at, at the history, you know on on the african continent, you know, um, the, the, the, the very early people use the stars, you know, for things like navigations and things like that. Right, the fact that they could actually look at the stars and actually apply it, you know, in something in their daily lives actually meant that they were actually already doing science. So science and astronomy is not something new to Africans, it's something that they've already been doing. And I think that you know, obviously, you know with the history, you know of the continent and things that that you know. Obviously, you know with with with the history, you know of the continent and things that you know that happened over over over the last two or three centuries. I think that all of those things then faded away. If you know from, from the African people and something that we should try to, you know, inspire and and sort of reinstall, you know, in, in, in the, in the African people as well definitely, Definitely.
Speaker 2:I mean, when I think of astronomy or space, I think of America. I don't necessarily think of Africa as such. And you're right, it used to be the white man's side. I mean, even in South Africa, I think there was the one South African, Mark Shatterworth. He went up to space, you know.
Speaker 2:So, even for that. I think it's pretty hard sometimes for people to imagine themselves, but I think that's why you, for example, as a visible role model. It really helps for a young person to be like hey, I want to be like Dr Charles as well, and I think that's very important. So, with that being said, let's talk about your role as the director of the African Astronomical Society. What does that actually involve?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that involves a lot of things, but, I think, a lot of things. But the main purpose and role of the African Astronomical Society and my role is to ensure that, you know we can grow astronomy on the continent. That means, you know, bringing more and more young people into the field of astronomy and ensuring that you know we can capture the interest in STEM, you know, in STEM subject, in STEM subject, and that they, you know they can also aspire to become astronomers or become scientists. You know that contribute to the growth of astronomy and space sciences, you know, on the continent. The other thing, of course, is that you know we support initiatives that you know that actually, you know, help the community, and these are things you know like in terms of outreach, you know reaching out, you know, to learners and to university students. And when we also, you know, support various grants, you know give certain grants. You know, for example, we've got the seed research grant, which supports young people from anywhere on the continent that are looking, you know, to become an astronomer but not have those resources. We also look at things like recognizing, you know, students that you know have done really well, you know, within the field of astronomy.
Speaker 1:So we have what is the African Astronomical Society MSc and PhD prize?
Speaker 1:That recognizes the work that young people are doing and I think, you know, by really creating a culture, a culture of, of, of recognition, you know, we, we, we can then have, you know, more and more young people actually believing that in themselves and that, you know, as, as young african people, they can contribute to the, to the growth, or you know, of astronomy um, on the continent, um, and african astronomical society is a, you know, it's Society is a membership society, which means that my job and the job of our executive committee is to serve the members of the society, to look at where their needs are and how we can support their needs and also how we can use that firstly to grow astronomy on the continent, but also to then also ensure that we are the voice of astronomy on the continent, but also to then also ensure that we are the voice of astronomy, you know, on the African continent.
Speaker 1:You know this means things like engaging with policymakers, engaging with funders and ensuring that, you know, the astronomers on the continent are well resourced for them to be able to do the science you know that they can do and be able to contribute to cutting cutting edge resources globally what a brilliant um, what a brilliant organization, and I think support is very important from the financial side, um, in terms of grants and everything, but also, um.
Speaker 2:You know, as you say, that you, as executive, you serve the members. So how did the society come about? What was the vision when it was created?
Speaker 1:So the African Islamic Society has a very long history, not all of it very bright and exciting and vibrant as it is now. I think it was initially ramped up in 2009. I think, you know it was initially dreamt up, you know, in 2009. I was still living in high school at the time. So it was dreamt up in 2009 and a group of astronomers said, you know, we want to establish this African Astronomical Society and they came together and you know, they put together its first constitution and they had the first executive committee and initially, it was meant to be hosted in uh, in ghana, um, and, and, and, and, and. Basically, what happened is that, because they weren't, there was no resourcing, that was put, you know, into, into it just in terms of funding, and and, and, and, and some of the other things that you need to run, you know. You know, vibrant society.
Speaker 1:Nothing actually happened, you know, know, for many years, since 2010. Until in 2018, the South African Department of Science and Innovation, you know, said you know, there is a need for an African, you know, islamical society. And then, you know, they committed some resources, you know, into establishing the society and at the time, I was working at the Department of Science and Innovation and you know, at the same time I was doing my PhD studies as well. So when they did, you know the whole elections for the, for the, for the, for the, for the first executive committee, I was, you know, you know what you call an early career sort of researcher.
Speaker 1:you know, that was, you know, elected to to serve on the executive committee and because, and being based in a sense, and innovation, um, they were like you know what, since you're already involved, you know in this organization maybe it's actually, you know something that you know we, we could have you working with the executive committee to sort of have it going and, and, and, and, and and build it up.
Speaker 1:And I think you know when we, when, when they decided at the time that you know, now it was time for it, you know, to, to, to grow its wings, and, and, and, and, you know, uh, and and, move out of the department. You know I also decided at the time that, you know, I think, that I would like to apply for the job to actually take this forward, because I have, you know, a very big passion, you know, for the growth, you know, of this field of astronomy in Africa. So, 2019, we got our constitution, we had, you know, a new executive committee, department of Science, innovation injected, you know, the resources that we needed to take, you know, the society to the next level. And I think, you know, since 2019 and until now, you know, we've been running with many exciting, you know, collaborations and partnerships, and I think the thing that defines EFAS is that we realize that we cannot exist as an island, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so, from, from, from very early on, we decided that we would collaborate, you know, with, with, with with similar, you know, societies in in, you know, in Europe and and then also again in the Americas, and by those collaborations we're able to, you know, to sort of build these relationships that got FH to be quickly recognized, you know, by, you know by some of these other bigger big international organization as well, and then you know that helped us grow, you know, to sort of the level that we're at now. You know, though, we still have a huge challenge that we don't have, you know, a large number of astronomers on the continent.
Speaker 2:But I think that you know, over the years, we have sort of been achieving, you know, most of our goals. Exciting, that's very exciting. So it's been like five years since um, like five beautiful years where things have actually started to move um, and I'd like to discuss that. So what are some of you know, even in your role, what are some milestones that you're very proud of that have achieved? I know you really spoke of some of the collaborations, but are there other things that happened in these past five years that you'd love to mention?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, for, you know, I'll start with the most recent ones, because these are the most recent ones in my mind. I think one of our biggest achievements was just, you know, I think one of our biggest achievements was just, you know, towards in our first uh, you know scientific committee meeting recently, and, and, and gave our our various, the first statement at, you know, as, as an observer member, you know, on on un corpus, and this is very important because this means that, you know, africa can actually have a have a voice, you know you know, you know in the structures right, because you know some of the members they include.
Speaker 1:You know, uh, you know your biggest. You know you know some of the members they include. You know your biggest. You know your country space agencies, you know represented by. You know, through the diplomatic channels, you've got international, you know astronomical associations like the IAU. You know who sit on that. You also got the European Astronomical Society.
Speaker 1:There was no voice for, for, for, for the astronomy community in africa, and I think that this is this what makes this, you know, one of our biggest, you know, really achievement that we can, we can now be, you know, the voice of our community on that body. Um, and another really big milestone I think that we had was, um, you know, recently there was, uh, the first international astronomical union general assembly, uh, assembly that was in South Africa. It took place in Cape Town. So to give people an idea of what the International Astronomical Union is, this is the main body for astronomy globally. Most people like to give the example that we're all in schools, all happy and learning about our planet. There were nine of them and all of a sudden they were eight, right.
Speaker 1:So this is the body that actually decides that. You know, this is a planet and, for the first time in, you know, over in the over 100 years history you know of this organization, this meeting was hosted on the continent and I think that you know one of our main roles was, you know, rallying the, you know, the whole african. You know one of our main roles was, you know, rallying the whole African community. You know, into saying that, though this meeting is taking place in South Africa, you know the whole African continent should own it, and I think we had a large number, you know of, of, of, of, of initiatives looking at supporting, you know, researchers, looking at supporting students. We even had a and, and, and we supported three students, one from Mauritius, one from Madagascar and one from Nigeria.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, leading up to the rollout of the actual event itself, the African Astronomical Society was the organizer, with this event being hosted by the Department of Science and Innovation and the National Research Foundation. So, you know, it was something that was really exciting, but we wanted it to be more than just a meeting, right, we wanted it to have, you know, a lasting legacy, you know, beyond just hosting this big meeting in 2024. So we came up with what is the legacy of the IU General Assembly. We don't want this to be the last IO General Assembly on the African continent. Though South Africa was the first one to host it, why can't another African country host it again in the future? And it shouldn't happen in the next 100 years, but happen, you know, soon yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh man, that's so impressive as and yeah, oh man, that's so impressive um kudos uh to you, because that's, those are rapid achievements in such a short space of time. Um, uh, while we were getting ready for this interview, I also saw another exciting um achievement that happened, um in the african it's the launch of the prime telescope in South Africa. So I know maybe some people might have heard of the Meerkat, they might have heard of the other ones that are here in South Africa. Could you explain what this is all about and its actual purpose for those who are unaware?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so the prime telescope is a 1.8 meter wide field infrared telescope and so basically, when you say 1.8 meter, you are describing the size of the mirror. A telescope has a mirror where all the light from space will come and then it reflects that light into its instruments. So that mirror is 1.8 meters and it is a near-infrared camera. But what makes PRIME special compared to most infrared observatories today is that it actually has four detectors that are the same detectors that are going to be on the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope. So the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope is NASA's next generation. You know Hubble telescope. So Prime actually has the four detectors that are going to be on the Nancy Grace Roman. Well, nancy Grace Roman will have, I think, between 12 and 8, I think it will have 18 of those detectors. Prime has four of them. But I think that it also gives you know a good idea of how these detectors will sort, also gives you know a good idea of how these detectors will sort of perform, you know, on a ground-based you know observatory.
Speaker 1:Before you know they launch the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope in the next couple of years when they're done with construction, but some of the exciting sciences that it's going to be doing is that it's going to be, you know, looking at detecting exoplanets.
Speaker 1:So exoplanets, you know, planets that are similar to our own, but look, but it's going to be looking for them in other solar systems, right, and those are going to be you're doing time domain, astronomy or transient science, and this means that it's going to be looking, you know, at various events that you know that take place somewhere in our, in our, universe. You know that take place somewhere in our, you know, universe. You know that that and and and help us understand our universe better, but it also, you know, positions, our continents, in South Africa, you know, at the forefront of global astronomy research, you know, and also, like I mentioned, due to it being a collaboration or, or us being in a collaborative space, you know we are now then able to you know to, to then able to, you know, to work with the STEAM researchers from different parts of the world.
Speaker 2:That's so impressive. So, with this telescope, is it going to be African astronomers who are primarily working and doing the research here in South Africa, or is it going to be an involvement with others from different parts of the world?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's a collaboration.
Speaker 1:So the South African Astronomical Observatory is one of the collaborators and they, of course, you know, provided the site for the telescope and will continue with maintenance of the telescope, you know, going into the future.
Speaker 1:But Osaka University in Japan is, you know, is one of the main partners, you know is one of the main, is one of the main, main main partners you know in in the collaboration and also the, the North American, you know, you know, or the National American Space Agency, or NASA, through the University of of of of Maryland, also collaborate on the pro, on the project and hence, you know it's using the, the same four detectors that are on the Nancy Gray, that that will be on the Nancy Gray's Roman Space Telescope. So it is a collaboration and I think that you know the data will then also become eventually public where you know anyone you know from the world, including, you know, african researchers, would have access to. But I think that you know almost immediately, the, you know the partners, including South Africa, will have direct access to that data and also astronomers on the African continent collaborating with South African astronomers will then also have access to the data as well.
Speaker 2:So exciting, exciting times. So there is the upcoming office conference that's happening in March and it will gather astronomers and researchers from Africa as well as the rest of the world. Could you explain to us what the main theme for this year's conference is all about and the actual purpose and importance of this really exciting conference that I think is going to happen in this month, because this is when the episode is going to be released in March?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the African Astronomical Society Conference, you know its main theme is always to sort of showcase, you know, the research coming out of Africa, the research being done by Africans, and providing, you know, african researchers the platform to share with one another what they're doing and creating a collaborative environment. I think that the, the, the, the. You know the biggest theme of this year's meeting is, is, is, is EFAS reinventing itself. Though we are, we are just five years old, you know we are, we are undergoing, you know, various transition phases. You know this.
Speaker 1:This, this annual conference this year actually also happens to be our general assembly. So our general assembly is where we have the new executive committee and we look at everything that we've done as the society in ways that we can improve as the society moving forward for the next three years before we have our next general assembly. So I think that it's going to be a redefining moment for the African-Islamic society, firstly with what it has achieved so far, but also with what the outlook is for the future, given that in the next few years, sk is going to be complete with construction and you know you're going to need more and more, you know, young African astronomers to be coming in and doing sciences with those instruments, and this conference is one platform for them to start having those conversations.
Speaker 2:Exciting and I think the fact that it brings in so many people, they can have access, uh, to other people who might have um technologies that are maybe a more advanced or other resources. So I think that's that's always the. The great part of um, of a, of a conference, is that networking ability, and you have been dialing down on the issue of collaborations, um, in our conversation. So how, how does collaborations maybe not only just amongst um the societies across the world, but even with, let's say, governments, because you said that you work with the department of science and innovation really help shape the future of astronomy in Africa?
Speaker 1:Look, I think collaboration helps us not to duplicate efforts and I think you know one of the biggest mistakes that we you know people often do is that you want to do something that someone is already doing and that way we all go forward slowly together, move very slow to some destination, but if you come together, you bring together the resources, you can go much further, much faster together. Um, and, and, and, and. You know, like, like I mentioned earlier that this is, this has been the story of the african astronomical society. If, if we had not collaborated you know we have, we have chosen to be an island would have not have moved. Uh, you know, anywhere, anywhere, and I think that you know this is also something that you know beyond.
Speaker 1:Even astronomy should be adopted into sciences in general that we work together. I mean, you know, for example, with, with, with, where I'm based now, at the Office of Astronomy for Development, we look at how we can collaborate in an inter, you know, within interdisciplinary spaces, and, and, and this can also, you know, sort of help with the developmental agendas you know, for the African continent, for example, and for the world, to sort of help. You know developing countries also. You know, catch up with the developed world, and I think collaboration is one of the best ways that we could sort of achieve those sort of goals.
Speaker 2:That's so true. That's so true, Dr Charles. As we are wrapping up this conversation, I'm just thinking of maybe somebody who's listening to this and is an aspiring astronomer and they're based in Kenya or they're based in Malawi. How are they able to be part of this society? How do they get involved?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in terms of student membership, I think we allow student membership from sort of school going towards undergraduate studies and honours so they can apply for membership. But we also have a large number of young people writing to us that want to start their own activities or want to, for example, astronomy clubs and things like that. So we ensure that we can provide them, you know with, with, with, with whatever help that we can for them to be able, you know to, to, to sort of establish. You know all of those. You know small activities, small scale activities that they want to do. You know sort of sort of enhance. You know activities. You know you know within, within, the areas that they're from.
Speaker 2:Okay, so those resources do exist if they reach out.
Speaker 1:Yes, they do.
Speaker 2:Oh, fantastic. So final question, looking ahead, like you said, the society is still pretty young, even though you are evolving.
Speaker 1:What impact do you think that the society will have in the African science landscape, both short and long term? Do you think, look, I think that it's, you know, given that that you know, africa's got this very young population, I think that, um, the, the society sits, you know, within a space where it can build one of the strongest astronomy community globally. You know, and I think that we are we already moving very positively, you know, in in that direction, like I said, with with, with the collaboration, with exchanges that are sort of already happening, you know, with various initiatives. You know, just yesterday I was at the Development of Africa through Radio Astronomy meeting and you can see a sort of, you know, upcoming people. You know that we can see and it makes me very excited to sort of see, you know, those we can see and it gives, it makes you very excited to sort of see, you know, those sort of initiatives happen.
Speaker 1:So the future of Africa looks bright and I think the role of EFAS is going to, you know, to ensure that we can nurture, you know, and help, you know, these young people realize, you know, their dreams. Continue, you know, supporting them. You know, providing them, you know, with the resources they need, continue to provide them with community, because community is a very important thing and I think, as a membership society, that is our main role is to provide them with the community and to say look, you are not alone. There's a whole lot of us that want to see the field of astronomy going forward. There's a whole lot of us that want to see the continent of astronomy going forward. There's a whole lot of us that want to see the continent of Africa also going forward.
Speaker 2:Exciting. Definitely, community is so important. Thank you so much for chatting with me today. I learned so much and I'm sure even our listeners learned a lot. I wish you all of the best in this upcoming conference and all the exciting things I think that's uh that are going to come uh from the work that's being done in this field of astronomy in africa. Thank you so much thank you and to everybody else who just who's tuned in.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to another episode of the root of the sun podcast with your girl and with an e. Until next time, goodbye.
