EP 166: Dr Karl Daniel, Telemedicine as a New Approach to Healthcare Access in Kenya

Imagine walking 50km to see a doctor versus getting treated from your phone. In Kenya, there’s just one doctor for every 5,000 people, far below the WHO’s recommended standard. Long queues, high costs, and staff shortages make access difficult.

In this episode of Rooted in Health II, Anne Chisa speaks with Dr. Karl Daniel, a medical doctor and healthcare entrepreneur, on how TIBU Health’s hybrid model is making healthcare accessible through in-person care, pharmacies, mobile clinics, and telemedicine.

Key issues covered:

Challenges in Kenya’s healthcare system and the impact of COVID-19
How TIBU Health integrates teleconsultation, pharmacies, and clinics
Building trust in digital health and adapting to cultural realities
Partnerships, insurance, and scaling across Kenya and beyond
Dr. Daniel’s 10-year vision for healthcare in Africa

Chapters

• 0:00 Breaking Healthcare's Barriers
• 5:24 COVID-19 as a Catalyst for Change
• 8:49 The Omnichannel Healthcare Model
• 16:39 Building Trust in Digital Health
• 22:01 The Future of Healthcare in Africa
• 36:40 Dr. Carl's Vision for 2033

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

Healthcare is broken and uh this is not a reserve of uh type of countries like Kenya. Um I think uh even in European countries uh they do face challenges.

SPEAKER_02: 0:38

The podcast series in collaboration with Global Health Strategy. As always, I'm your host, Ann Tesla, and thank you for tuning in to this episode. If you are a regular or a newbie, remember to subscribe, disseminate the show, and definitely like. Now, let's get into today's episode. Imagine needing to walk 50 kilometers just to see a doctor. Now, imagine getting treated from your phone. Today's episode is the story of Kenya's Two Health. In Kenya, there's just one doctor for every 5,000 people, far below the recommended World Health Organization standard. And that challenge is only expected to grow as climate change drives up cases of malaria, cholera, and infectious diseases like TB. At the recently concluded Africa Climate Summit, digital health emerged as a key solution for building climate-resilient health systems. Laying onto this another stark reality. A recent report by the Ministry of Health in Kenya showed that 93% of Kenya's health facilities cannot provide even the most basic outpatient services. This is the case of many African countries, not Kenya alone. And long queues, high costs, and severe workforce shortages, and you begin to see the urgency for innovation. Table Health is rewriting the story. By blending in-person services with the digital solutions, this pioneering platform is bringing affordable, patient-centered healthcare directly to the people, whether through a phone, a mobile clinic, or at home. At the center of this movement is today's guest, Dr. Carl Daniel, a healthcare leader passionate about creating systems that truly serve communities. In this conversation with Dr. Carl, we'll explore how Two Health is breaking down barriers, leveraging technology, and showing the world that Africa can lead in building healthcare for the future. Now, let's take a listen.

SPEAKER_00: 3:13

Thank you, Anne, and uh thanks for having me on this show.

SPEAKER_02: 3:17

It is such a pleasure to have you on. Would you kindly briefly introduce yourself for our audience before we get started in the work that you do?

SPEAKER_00: 3:26

Thank you, Anne. My name is uh Dr. Carl Daniel Dodiaga. I'm a medical doctor by profession, uh, specialized in epidemiology. I'm also a healthcare executive and uh entrepreneur, currently based in Nairobi, Kenya.

SPEAKER_02: 3:41

Fantastic. So today, Dr. Karl, we're gonna be talking a lot about Tebu Health, and I can see it prominently seen in your background. Um, we're gonna be talking about Kenya's healthcare system and everything. So I just wanted us to contextualize um our conversation, right? To begin with, would you kindly paint us a picture of what um healthcare looked like or currently still looks like uh for the average Kenyan before Two Health came into the story?

SPEAKER_00: 4:11

Okay. So um I always start by saying healthcare is broken and uh this is not a reserve of uh third world countries like Kenya. Um I think uh even in European countries uh they do face challenges. Um and um um the major challenge actually is access to healthcare. And and when people talk about access to healthcare, I think they always uh think about the underprivileged, uh low middle income, uh, but they forget that uh even uh the working class and um uh let me call them the middle class also face challenges because uh if you walk into Nairobi hospital today or Agacan, for example, it might take you between two and four hours, and sometimes you even have to wait a day or two to see a specialist. So um healthcare access is quite a challenge uh to everyone. And uh I think um uh Tbu Health uh is one of uh the pioneers that is trying to transform uh healthcare in Kenya. Um uh we started uh this process during COVID times, and I think we did uh a lot of uh amazing things during that time and we're still doing so. So uh we are transforming healthcare as you know it.

SPEAKER_02: 5:32

Yes, fantastic. I absolutely love that. And I like what you said that you know the issue of accessibility to healthcare is an issue that everybody faces because we always center it to be an issue that only um people in low income or vulnerable areas are affected by. But every single person is affected by the long lines, by by the by the long waits. That's something that you you cannot get around. So when you saw this reality, what then inspired this vision for Tigu Health?

SPEAKER_00: 6:06

So um around COVID times, there were many challenges because uh I think uh as we noted that uh the healthcare system wasn't ready uh for that kind of uh pandemic uh situation. Um I also think uh uh things like Ebola, we are lucky that they have not uh reached Kenya, for example, uh, because we are not completely ready uh for such. Um and I think uh during COVID time uh it was um a testing ground for us. Um uh I, for example, I can say uh during that time my mom was just diagnosed with uh cancer, and uh it was a challenge uh to seek health care. Uh as much as you had money in your pocket, even leaving the country was a problem. And um for that instance, we had to rethink the way we deliver health care uh to the community. Uh, is it always important or uh a requirement to have uh all uh healthcare um uh diagnostics and uh treatment to be done in patient, or are there certain services that can be delivered at home, at the comfort of your home or the comfort of your office? Um and um I think uh COVID times uh challenged us to accept uh teleconsultation first of all, and also to accept uh home sample collection. So you could uh take your sample, do a swab for you, and go and uh send the results to you. And also for some of uh the treatments that we normally use to have them done only in hospitals, uh, they were able to be uh done in at the comfort of your home or your office and all that. I think uh a good example is vaccination. Before you had to go and get vaccinated at a healthcare accredited facility, but with COVID, they had to do it at the shop, retail shops, you know, um uh restaurants where the space and all that, they set up tents. And uh this showed that actually there are certain services which can be uh taken away from traditional healthcare settings, and uh they will increase actually uptake of uh, for example, preventive healthcare uh vaccinations, as I've mentioned.

SPEAKER_02: 8:28

Fantastic. So um the way that you've described it um and what I've read, this model is described as omnichannel. So it blends the in-person care to mobile clinics and digital services. So for someone who has never experienced um this before, what does this actually look like in practice? So if I'm a patient, can you walk me through that journey?

SPEAKER_00: 8:52

Yeah, so uh before I even talk about the hybrid model, um, I can give you uh an example of what Kenyans basically do, the day-to-day Kenyans. So uh given that uh um our healthcare facilities are normally congested, um, and uh also the cost is quite high. I think uh you and I, when we are sick, you think you have a sore throat or headache, you'll just walk uh to the nearest pharmacy because they are over um I think 2,000 plus, I think 5,000 and something according to the KMPDC. Um and uh these facilities uh you walk in, you state your problem, and you're given some medication. And um, I think 70% of the time uh you'll be able to sort uh your issue or uh at least postpone the your visit to your doctor or something like that. So uh this has been the normal practice uh for most Kenyans, and it is a problem. Um uh simply because it is driving uh, for example, antibiotic resistance. Um, and uh many of these uh pharmacies do not have a qualified uh farm uh technologist. Uh some of them just uh place a normal um, like I can call them a vendor or something like that, and their target is just to sell the medication, and they are they are not uh keen on doing diagnostics and stuff like that. So um Tbu Health uh wanted to address one thing. And the first thing they wanted to address was the time. The reason why you visit this pharmacy and all that is that it takes less time for you to uh state your problem and to get at least some quick relief. Because I'll I'll I'll go to hospital because the headache is very severe. If I can take some panadology today and uh be prolonging it by a few hours, uh, the better. So what we do in these situations is that when you walk into a pharmacy, uh we have our placards there with our toll-free number, and we encourage the pharmacist to um probe you a little, like what ailment you have, do some kind of triage. And if he feels that uh you require some medication which requires a doctor's prescription, then he advises you to call that number. So you call our virtual number, you are connected to the doctor, uh, they do some consultation for you. Uh, if your condition requires some tests, uh, they can advise you where to go and do the test, like the nearest facility, or they can decide to do the uh uh home sample collection. And they can they can actually come to the pharmacy where you are, draw blood, uh, go and uh do the whichever diagnostic that needs to be done and send the results over. Uh, once that is done, uh also uh the doctor can write a prescription for you, which you cannot fulfill at the pharmacy that you are at. And we've seen with that we avoid uh uh giving uh people necessary prescriptions uh because I believe most people, when they feel ill, they either say they have typhoid or malaria. Yeah. So uh in short, that is our telehealth virtual consultation uh journey. Um, I think you also know that TBU Health has uh some clinics collocated within pharmacies, like uh uh, for example, Good Life. Um, and in these instances, we do know that there are conditions that uh you cannot only do virtual consultation, you need to do some physical examination, uh, and also you need to use some certain diagnostic uh gadgets to find out where the problem really is. So in this instance, when you go to the front uh and see the pharmacist, they will direct you uh to the uh consultation room, which is just uh next by, you see the doctor, they do the physical exam or whatever that is needed, and they can write the prescription or advise you also on which specialist to see. If you require specialized care or any follow-up that you may require, uh they'll be able to do that uh for you. Um so um I believe uh another challenge with most people when they're seeking care is they don't know um whether their condition requires uh a certain diagnostic procedure or a certain specialized care and all that. And this uh seamless journey, because it is a hybrid model where we have, as you said, uh teleconsult, uh physical location, uh home-based services, uh, and uh the uh virtual, which does the scheduling and follow-up, uh, we're able to guide you uh step by step uh on what you require, uh, including evacuation, maybe you require an ambulance for your condition. Um, and I think that way we are transforming um healthcare and also decongesting the accident and emergency so uh we don't have to have everybody going to uh the major uh hospitals for care.

SPEAKER_02: 13:56

Oh, okay. Now I understand. Um, I have a follow-up question. I'm just thinking, who with the telemedicine side? Um who are they talking to? They are talking to a qualified doctor? Yes, they are and then you have doctors, let's say, um, in your doctors on call who are specialized to act in the telemedicine side.

SPEAKER_00: 14:19

Yes, yes, correct. And and we also have specialists. So you know the beautiful thing with the virtual consultation is that we are able to uh disseminate and uh expand the outreach of specially specialities because majority of them are based in Nairobi. Uh so I can give an example for a neurologist. Uh, if you are having uh convulsion disorders, uh, which we normally call them fits as well, uh, there's actually a certain test that you need support which is supposed to be done, which is basically an EEG. Um and nowadays we have machines uh which is just like a cup which you put on, and uh it can be operated by a nurse or just a nurse aide. Uh and this data is transmitted into a mobile phone, and the that data is sent now to the neurologist. And at the comfort of their office, they're able to read the report, uh, write out whichever prescription that is needed and send it over to you. So if you are at a pharmacy, I mean that can be done for you. Uh, same applies for ophthalmology. We have uh a very beautiful uh fundoscope, which can also do the same because uh basically it takes a picture. Um, and I think nowadays with technology and mobile phones, uh, we know how to uh take good pictures because the um uh gadgets that we have nowadays can do out of focus. So you don't really need to do a lot of uh skilled training for this. So um I think um our hybrid system is really, really um doing uh wonders and uh there is more to come.

SPEAKER_02: 15:56

Wow, I'm so impressed with the technological um aspect that you have and um in the facilities that are available to the Kenyans and the community. So, how did you make sure that Tibu Health was actually tailored to Kenya's diverse social, economic, and cultural realities? Um so speak to me about that.

SPEAKER_00: 16:20

Um so um I think when you uh you have a startup, there's there are always challenges because uh what you think uh you the patient was is actually not what they want. Um and uh whatever works for the American market is not what was going to work in the Kenyan market. So um uh Thibu was founded by um uh Dr. Sorry, not Dr. But uh Jason Carmichael and uh Peter Gekera. Uh Jason is in the field of uh um public health, uh, and uh Peter is an IT guru. So when they started during COVID times, uh they had this idea of having um the um mobile applications. So it was both on uh the Google Play and uh the Apple uh store. Uh but um uptick was not as great as uh they'd expected, or basically the usage. Uh it was like at 20%, uh, but uh the calls that were coming to TBU were a hundred plus. So they noted that uh as much as uh they would expect uh people to make orders through these applications, they were not using the applications as uh the apps as they should. Uh number two, um, I think uh most people thought that uh video uh consults would work quite well, but then uh Kenyan market people are very worried about data. Uh I think uh most people complain about Safaricom. You open your data and in two minutes uh you have insufficient funds and all that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So um we also had to do with that because I think there are there are many gadgets out there uh which are standalone. So uh we had the idea of placing them within the pharmacies, and uh all uh the patient had to do was just go in, key in, whatever, uh like the queue management system that we have in banks, uh, and they're able to talk one-on-one with the doctor. But then we realized that uh the bandwidth for that is not is not there. So we had to really, really change the way we think um about it. Um, and uh that's why we came with a toll-free number. Um, something else also that we noted was uh during COVID time, um, people were forced to use telemedicine. So insurances before did not accept uh telemedicine and people had to pay out of pocket. But during COVID times, a couple of them agreed to that, and uh they came up with systems like the OTP uh prompt, which uh is able to identify that uh actually it is the client who has initiated this consultation. But after COVID, the Kenyans uh no longer wanted uh virtual consultation, they were asking for physical locations, and uh that's why we had to, yeah, we had to come up with this hybrid model uh to be able to sort them out and uh give them what they want.

SPEAKER_02: 19:21

It's so true. I think it it's some of these things, like you said, that it might work in the US market, but um, once COVID is here, I know, let's say, for example, when I'm using the bank system, I reach a point where I'm like, I want to talk to a human. I I crave that interaction. And I think at the core, we are designed for interaction as much as this is designed to make things easier. So I'm happy to hear that you did think of these alternative um solutions to counteract um, you know, data, the internet connectivity as well. So this toll-free number, is it 24-7 or has it got a specific window when you can speak to a doctor?

SPEAKER_00: 20:05

So it has a specific window, um, 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. And um we came up with that simply because of uh we looked at data uh when patients call very often. And uh majority of the time they actually call in the afternoon, going towards the evening. Uh, very few call uh during morning time. Um we would like actually to extend that time to 10 uh because we've also noted that uh from 8 to 10, there are still a few more uh dropped calls. Uh, but that one now we have to also coordinate with different partners because some pharmacies, yes, do work until late, others do work 24 hours. Um, and uh I think we're going to adjust according to that. And uh given that we are going to go now outside Nairobi, like we are planning to go to Mombasa, Narok, you know, Kisumu and the like, I think the cultural uh there are cultural differences and even habits. So uh opening time would be different, for example. So uh I can give an example. One of our minute clinics uh operates from 11 and then we close way later because 8 to 11, nobody's going to walk in. Uh Mombasa have been told that uh uh if we open a clinic within town after 4 p.m. everybody disappears and goes outside uh the city. So yeah, exactly. So we really need to adapt according to uh the community and uh how they live their life. Um I think also for some of them you have to consider if they are Muslim, maybe the it's prayer time and the like, yeah. So all those uh have to be taken into consideration and uh we have to tailor to each market.

SPEAKER_02: 21:51

And speaking of tailoring, I think one a key thing in healthcare, um, not only in rural areas or rural communities, is the issue of trust, right? Trust in medicine. So um what are some of the challenges or how have you navigated, you know, convincing people to embrace digital health as safe and reliable? There's a lot of talk with misinformation and fake news and deep fakes. So, in this world, how are you convincing people that you're really talking to a doctor? Your your, for example, your data is safe. There's so many issues um around that issue of um digital health.

SPEAKER_00: 22:31

Yeah, and I agree with you. Actually, healthcare is a referral uh system. Uh, it's not like um other products whereby you just put a billboard and uh uh people will start buying from you. I think um we've had many instances whereby somebody walks into a clinic and they end up not walking out of that clinic because either the doctor was a quirk doctor or they are practicing uh in spaces where they're not supposed to practice that condition. They don't have the emergency services uh to cater for the complications that can occur when uh they're doing those uh procedures and the like. So uh Kenyans are very skeptical about uh uh health. And uh, as you say, even when you're doing the teleconsult, they want to know your credentials. Are you really a doctor? You know, um, and the like. And I think uh one thing about uh uh health, as I mentioned, uh it's a referral system. So if your mom tells you that uh Tibu is okay, you'll rather go to Tebu here than just looking for uh sinities somewhere to uh uh decide where to seek your care and all that. So uh one of the ways that we've done so is actually by having health talks uh within corporate organizations, communities, residential areas, uh just to make them aware of uh the kind of services we have, the quality uh that we offer, and we even give them some free services so that they understand uh not only uh how good we are at doing it, but also uh how reliable we are uh in that uh aspect. Um something else also we've done is uh um have uh proper feedback mechanisms because uh uh people always want to read and uh know. The same way like for a B. You'll go and read uh the reviews. Yeah. And if the reviews are good, you'll be like, yeah, let me let me go and give it a try. Yeah, so that one has also helped us uh quite a lot because we are on all social platforms, and uh, you cannot say that we are controlling that feedback because uh we are not uh the caretakers of uh that platform and all that. So that also helps a lot uh for people to start using uh our services. Uh we also partner with insurances, so uh CIC, World Mutual, and the like. Uh, and we offer this as an uh an incentive or uh an extra for their clientele because we charge them way less than uh the normal fee for consultation. And um I think this added um um package for their clientele also helps them in a way that uh uh we are able to redirect their clients to where they can seek care and without them worrying about uh uh the facility exhausting their insurance and all that. So that one has also built a lot of trust uh for TBU uh teleconsultation.

SPEAKER_02: 25:39

I'd also like to understand the views um from the doctors themselves. Have they been also receptive in embracing this um form of technology? Um you mentioned, for example, that um you are liaison with medical aids so that it's charged less. So does this mean that they won't be getting the same amount of um returns um with this digital health? So, how are the doctors actually taking this innovation?

SPEAKER_00: 26:09

At first there were some reservations because uh, as you say, they were worried that uh they're not going to make as much as they used to uh in their physical location uh locations and all that. Um so there's a bit of pushback. Uh, but after some time they saw that actually virtual uh consultations build into getting referrals into physical locations because, as I mentioned, there are certain conditions that you cannot manage uh virtually. And uh with this patient, if you didn't do the virtual consultation with them, you could have actually lost them because either they would have uh decided not to seek care or they would have gone to another facility uh for that kind of care. So um slowly and slowly uh they have started accepting uh virtual consultations. I think another challenge is uh uh training from med school, they used to tell us every patient you have to do a physical exam on them, and you have to spend a minimum of 15 minutes with them. And you see now this is this has been ingrained in every doctor. And now you're coming with technology and telling them that I can actually consult you over the phone and be able to sort you out. And uh something else also, patients do not uh or they forget to mention everything. I think most of the time, for example, when you're having food poisoning, uh you're going to uh relate it to what you had last. And yet maybe um what actually is causing that problem is something that you had eight hours or 12 hours ago because it does take time to uh uh manifest. Yeah. So uh in that instance, that's where where doctors like to do a physical exam because maybe somebody will forget to say that uh it's not only my hand which is hurting, but also my back. Uh they'll mention the thing that hurts the most and uh not mention um anything else. Then when you probe and uh do the physical exam, then you find out that oh, actually uh that's not the only problem. There are the issues which uh the patient thinks it is from some past um um occurrence or something like that, and that they're not correlated.

SPEAKER_02: 28:22

My mom works in the health space, she's a nurse, and um, we have some of these conversations because I speak a lot about you know digital health and whatnot. And one of the key things um as you're speaking about how patients fail to communicate to their symptoms, um, or rather, like how you're taught at medical school that you need to thoroughly investigate a person, is that we, as the lay people, we do not have the language to explain some of these things, right? I could think um it's my hand that is sore, but it could be something to do with my back. I'm not sure. But you know, so if it was, if if I was in my doctor's room, I would be able, he could he could do that 15-minute thorough examination, or I just don't have the words to explain some of the things that I'm feeling. So do you not is it maybe not a pro like a problem where some things could be missed and fall through the cracks because we as a people are not equipped to really explain our symptoms, let alone diagnose it.

SPEAKER_00: 29:29

Yeah, I agree with you. It is a problem. Um, and uh that's why uh Thibu had to come up with the hybrid model, because uh no one solution works uh for uh everyone. And people are different, as you've mentioned. Some people can explain themselves clearly uh what they want and what condition they have. And for them, you don't need to do that physical exam because maybe it's a condition that they've been going through or uh uh experiencing for quite a while. Uh, and uh they even know maybe the medication that they need to be or. They just need a prescription because without a prescription, they cannot fulfill this thing. But with technology, the beautiful thing about it is that first of all, we have an integrated patient EMR medical management system, which is connected to the LIS, which is the lab management system, together with a dashboard for the patient. So for example, if you are hypertensive, for example, and you came in, we took your pressures because I think most pharmacies now is able to do those basic uh tests without requiring a doctor to be there or a nurse. With that data, they can just keep in on the dashboard, and this also forms part of the consultation. Once that has been done, and maybe we've given you some initial medication, uh we always do a follow-up depending on the condition that you're having, because I know for a certain condition I can give you one week for review, another one I can only give you a few 24 or uh 12 hours before I do a follow-up because of the risk that we might have missed something very important, and also the fact that maybe you might end up requiring to come physically to the location. So all this has been mapped in a very nice algorithm, which we train uh not only the medical personnel because they already know about that, but also all the farm technologists and the pharmacist, uh, so that they're able to uh ensure that very little is missed out, and follow-ups are done to ensure that whatever management that was shared with the patient uh is working and uh we have not uh caused harm to the patient.

SPEAKER_02: 31:48

No, I'm impressed that you there are some workarounds to some of these um solutions, and of course, you know, some things cannot happen immediately and it takes time, it takes time to develop. So um earlier on, you you told me that um you are thinking of um introducing uh TiburHealth to other parts of Kenya, and I think this is obviously an innovation that would be great if it's you know to be scaled even across Africa because many of these um issues are African uh problems, even world global problems. But for now, let's focus on our 54 countries. So, what does it take to scale this model? Um, do you need partnerships with local governments, funders, tech companies? Um what is the way around to make this accessible to so many people so that people can thrive using um innovations like Tibu Health?

SPEAKER_00: 32:50

Um as you mentioned, uh, this is a challenge and not only a reserve of uh African countries. And uh I believe uh Tibu's model is something that can really work well in Africa. Uh right now uh we're in Kenya, uh we are partnered with the uh Good Life, uh, but we want to uh enter other retail spaces like supermarkets. We are in active conversations with them. And um for these minute clinics, as we call them, uh some of them will be sub-specialized, so basically offering vaccines. You know, if you work in there, you're going to get your vaccination and certain basic uh uh procedures like uh removing of uh earworks uh, you know, and the like, because for those ones you don't need to uh really go to a big healthcare facility and all that. And uh we do need partners because uh we want to bring down the cost of healthcare. And uh the beautiful thing about uh setting up in uh uh the minute uh sorry, in uh pharmacies and retail spaces is that we share the cost. So um cost for rent, uh cost for utilities and all that, it is shared. And shared in a way that we do a revenue share, not that we pay part of the rent, because uh we benefit from their footfall, because we already set up uh this many clinics in areas where there's already a high footfall and uh easily accessible to uh a certain residential area or school or community. And uh doing so uh we do not have to spend not only on utilities but also on marketing and many other uh things that we normally do. And we're able to um uh pass on these benefits to the patient. So, for example, our flagship clinics uh consultation fee will range between 15 uh to 5,000. Uh for a minute clinic, it will range between 500 to 1,000. Um, a lab test, for example, like a uh a hematology uh test uh will cost half the price that you'll normally pay uh at our flagship clinic and even uh over 60% less that will than what you normally pay in the other facilities. And uh this is the benefit of uh this uh low uh cost uh setup uh model that uh we have. Uh the fact that also we use uh insurance companies, we have over 27 insurance companies, and they also refer their clients to these minute clinics, also advise them to use the virtual consultations and the like. We're also able to uh pass these benefits uh of um um low-cost uh uh uh consultations and uh medical services. So it's a very beautiful model. Uh good life is in Uganda. Um uh currently in Kenya they have I think 145 uh um pharmacies. We are there across those 145 with virtual consultations. Uh we also will offer virtual consultations in Uganda because I think they have I think uh six to ten units over there. So we are going to get uh a toll-free number. And uh God willing, uh given uh we have uh angel investors and uh our current investors, uh, we will be able to uh go to Uganda and beyond.

SPEAKER_02: 36:26

Amazing. Um, it's such brilliant work. I love the idea of being in supermarkets or real retail areas, as you call them, because that's where people already are. And it brings in that added convenience that I don't have to go, I can get my shopping done and also see the doctor um at the same time. So um I really hope that um this innovation really goes beyond and reaches the scale that it needs to, because so many people can really, really benefit from this. And Dr. Carl, I've thoroughly enjoyed um this conversation. As we close off, I have um a big question uh for you. Um, you know, if you're sitting here 10 years from now, what's the dream that you have for healthcare access in Kenya and even you know across Africa?

SPEAKER_00: 37:17

The first thing I miss about uh how healthcare was before, um after independence, for example, is the emergency number, uh 991, 999 or something like that. Um uh because currently uh healthcare is disintegrated. Every facility does their own thing, every facility has their own uh uh EMR system. And so if you're transferred from one facility to another, it takes time for you to get those records from facility A to facility B. So uh my first wish would be to have a centralized system uh which uh would be make it easy for uh facilities to uh transfer information. Um and number two, also to have kind of a web-based uh dashboard, because uh uh one of the challenges that uh patients have is uh they come to your facility and you ask them, which medication are you on? It's a green pill, it uh it is round, you know, and stuff like that. If uh they can access this information online and just uh show you that I was on this medication before, then I got to this medication. These are the tests that have been doing so far, these are the um uh the results that I have and all that, it would be beautiful because it would mean that you can easily seek a second opinion. And uh also when you're outside the country, you can still access your uh uh information and get the treatment uh that you need. So um I I believe um uh if uh all healthcare facilities um embrace um technology, uh we are going to move very far. And that includes government facilities uh because uh one thing I always notice is that um uh many private healthcare facilities are not in certain uh towns, but as uh Kenyans you visit everywhere. You can have an accident um somewhere and uh the people don't have your information that you're insured and all that, and you end up at Kenyatta or you know, and the like. So um I really hope that uh we can ensure that uh both private and public healthcare facilities have quality healthcare, they are well equipped, and also have uh well-trained um uh personnel and properly staffed.

SPEAKER_02: 39:45

What a wonderful vision. And it's one that I also fully support. And I hope, you know, in 10 years' time, when we come back and TBO Health is all across Africa, we can remember this and like look at it. It has it has happened. Um, Dr. Carl, thank you so much for sharing the journey of TBO Health and really showing us how compassion and innovation and technology can bring healthcare closer to people. This has been such an inspiring conversation.

SPEAKER_00: 40:14

Thank you. I've really enjoyed it and uh I look forward to having another one, maybe in 10 years' time or even in two years' time.

SPEAKER_02: 40:23

Definitely. And to everybody else who's tuned into this episode, thank you so much for listening to another episode with your girl and with an E. Until next time. Goodbye.